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Ok, telling of occasional home-truths among friends is always a good thing. So I'll use this opportunity to tell one home-truth (is there even such a thing?) Excuse me while I vent. Peeps, I really think people who don't speak isiZulu or isiXhosa as a first language should really take some time to learn the clicks. I'm sorry, but this has become my bugbear. One of my favourite - favourite because he's from KZN - up and coming journalists is current affairs anchorman Xolani Gwala. It's impressive to see a young man develop in his career the way Xolani has from his early days at Ukhozi FM (SABC's Zulu-medium radio station). However nothing saddens me like listening to some of the people that he interviews call him "Kholani" or "Zolani" simply because they haven't taken the trouble to learn to pronounce the man's name properly. Now before the right-wing starts shouting me down let me hasten to add that this is not only aimed at English or Afrikaans first-language speakers, Sotho-language speakers are guilty of the same thing except that they have at least learnt two of the three main clicks even though it is given that they always use them incorrectly, for example to a Sotho-language speaker "Xolani" is most likely to be pronounced "Qolani" or "Colani". I say if an illiterate Zulu - whose language doesn't have an "R" alphabet - can learn to say "Ray" or "Larry" correctly, I don't see why other people can't learn the clicks. As second language English-speakers or third-language Afrikaans speakers – or vice versa – we may never reach perfection in command of those languages or even speak them with the same level of articulation as their first-language speakers but we learn everyday to be better at speaking those languages. Now I don’t say people must be forced to speak isiZulu or isiXhosa but learning to pronounce names correctly is surely the right thing to do. It really doesn't have anything to do with physiology or anatomy, does it?. It's about having the politeness to learn how to pronounce a person's name correctly. |
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I agree with you Rog. I had to compromise and shorten my name because I had to accommodate people who could not pronounce it. I agree I was not too comfortable with this compromise as a result I had to tell people that if ever they misspell it... then I would use assault as an option to force them to spell it well. that helped...
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agreed, at least vuyo mbuli took the effort to correct his pronounciation of "circumstances" - now if only the pres would do the same
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I know what you mean. After knowing certain SA people for years and years they still can't be feked to try pronounce my real name properly. People say I am weird to be insulted by that lack of effort. Thanks for reassuring me. |
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Quote: Nah LJ, I'll avoid posting on how we speak or write each other's languages. I think that's a minefield, even though I’m incessantly bothered by Vuyo's pronunciation of the word "finance", he always makes the word sound like something out of a French porn movie. My real gripe is with names of people. My Afrikaans is really not good, however I've yet to incorrectly pronounce an Afrikaaner person's name. Ok, they may not be entirely true because at high school I was mortified when I learnt the correct pronunciation of the surname "Kuhn" after I had, for countless number of times, referred to a genteel Afrikaaner gentleman who had sponsored a Science Olympiad I had taken part in as "Mr. *&^$#@". I think we can be excused for not knowing the intricacies of proper grammar in any given language but I see no excuse in not learning to say people's names correctly. |
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Ja and mine usually gets slaughtered by anyone who is not English. My uber cool image and reputation got hammered as a student graduating when the Afrikaans speaking Chancellor totally ruined my surname. Some people still call me ******* because of that B*STARD. |
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Ah, trust the auto-censor to have a problem with my "Mr C_o_o_n". I didn't mean it like that Mr. Censor, I was only describing how I once pronounced the surname "Kuhn". |
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Lol!!!! |
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If I count the number of horrific ways my first name has been pronounced... it's not just South Africans though. The Dutch version makes me want to change my name - a soft 'g' became this coughing hack. How do you feel about the translation of place and person names? For example, if the character doesn't exist in that alphabet or the alphabet isn't even remotely close. In Dutch, the US is VS. A Russian friend told me his name was written as it would be pronounced in French, which caused problems for English speakers. |
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I really do try to use the clicks. For instance the word Khosa. I teach 30 under 12 year old children every Sunday, some speak isiZulu, but most of the kids are from the E.Cape and speak isiKhosa. Many of them have names with clicks in, like Nxele or Ntombiso - I continue to try the clicks, but it causes much hilarity with the children - they roll on the carpet laughing at me. I gather that my clicks all sound the same and this is funny. I have tried bringing my tongue forward for a sharper click and placing it at the back for a deeper click, but ..... Remember the Click Song? That got a good many non clicking speakers trying the click and was good. I think that song should be popularised again. |
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Ahh, graduation ceremonies! A countless number of names and surnames have been mangled by Deans and Vice-Principals! However in mitigation, I'd like to suggest that not knowing to pronounce a name because of an unusual arrangement of alphabets is one thing, however to failing to learn the correct pronounce an alphabet (like the Zulu/Xhosa "c", "q" or "x") is not right, methinks. The thing is that people don't even have to learn the names but the only the correct pronunciation of the clicks and bingo! Like linguists are wont to say, learn the principles and everything falls into place. |
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Ah Jeez, ROG, I find it difficult to get 2 clicks right and I believe there are something like 16 different clicks! |
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In my case its a simple surname but he got the sounds of the letters wrong - so it's a bit of a click issue here too... It happens all the time, even with people who I've previously corrected. |
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I do use the clicks (well, the 3 of them that I'm very sure about using correctly). Oh Number 1 Husband, I agree with you that people living in SA should be able to do the clicks properly but it's a huge can of worms that you're looking into ... have you heard some of the dreadful pronunciations some of the SAfm newsreaders give to ordinary English words? And then you get Mr Sexwale and there's no click in his name ... |
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I don't know though, I remember in the '80s when the wars were going on in Central America and the Reagan administration was supporting the Contras and the left wing the Sandinistas, hearing a lot of newscasters trying to be oh-so-hip and down-with-our-Nicaraguan-brothers by trying to speak perfectly good English and then taking a split second to rearrange their vocal organs to spit out Nee-kar-ag-wah in "almost Spansh," and then another moment to go back to English again. Now some even heard that in Spanish 'you say "g" like "kh" in Scottish "loch"' and in an excess of would-be respect mispronounced it 'Nee-kar-akhh-wah' ("kh" only before "i" or "e."). I suppose the difference is that there is an English language way to say "Nicaragua" or the like, but not necessarily one for somebody's name. Also, is it disrespectful if I, a non-SAn, get a name wrong? You say "I really think people who don't speak isiZulu or isiXhosa as a first language should really take some time to learn the clicks." but that includes all people, not just SAns. Is it like in Canada, where anglophones are disliked because they 'should' speak French (and well) in Quebec, whereas to les Etats-uniques everyone speaks English because (poor dears) they aren't supposed to speak French (and if you are Etats-unique and try, they burble and keen with joy and happiness). I have to admit I found it neat when anglophone TV readers would say things like "The caisse populaire in Saint-Hyacanthe today opened up a new branch at the corner of de la Mairie and Cote-des-Nieges" and switched between English and French vocal spaces seamlessly. I was so jealous. Is that what you're hoping for? Because the intermittent 'excuse me while I try to speak isiZulu' phase is really awkward. Is there a boundary between a tourist from outside a click-zone who can be forgiven and say somebody who speaks to SAns a lot and who can't be? |
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Quote: I agree totally that raising an issue about pronunciation is a minefield, hence my attempt - maybe unsuccessful - at trying to separate the issue of learning to say the clicks from the issue of general pronunciation. Maybe there isn't a difference. It is given that second or third language speakers of any language will have trouble pronouncing words of a "foreign" language largely because - as I said - of an unfamiliar arrangement of alphabet's or unfamiliar pronunciation of alphabets - oh dear... ... there's no difference afterall. Ok let me just say, I have more trouble with incorrect pronunciation of names specifically than with words in general. Heck, I have no quarrel with people who pronounce "matter" as "mutter". However I think it's unforgivable to change Bulelani's lastname to "Ngoockah" or Dr. Mangcu's first name to "Cole-Ella" instead of Xolela. I won't get started with Mbeki who has since become "Em-Beckie". Btw, the mangling of names and words is not the monopoly of SAfm journos. Last week an e-TV staffer told us Mbeki was in "Chill" (Chile). |
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There are three main clicks: C, Q, X. The rest are just variations of the main three. If you learn the three main ones all the others will be very easy to pronounce. The other ones that you mention are created by adding an H or G after the three main clicks. It's really about learning how to position the tongue against the inner part of one's teeth or the palate in order to make a click. For example tip of the tongue against the upper central incisors gives you a "C" click, or the tongue rolled to touch the middle section of the palate gives you a "Q" click and the one side (left or right) of your tongue touching the upper last set of molars gives you the “X” click. Nothing to it really. |
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Quote: The difficulty around "Sexwale" can be easily overcome because most of us are either second or third language Afrikaans speakers and if you can do the whole Afrikaans "G" thing then "Se-(Afrikaans:"G")-wale" should be easy-peasy. |
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Lol! |
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And in the Sotho languages 'r' is also pronounced as Afrikaans 'g'. This seems to vary in isiXhosa, though...Rog, what is the standard isiXhosa rule regarding 'r'? Oh, by the way, the clicks never gave me any problem. My problem was always with 'hl' and 'dl', and you simply won't believe how many sessions with a speech therapist it took me to pronounce English 'th' correctly! |
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In isiXhosa a stand-alone "R" is rare, you mostly get it with an "h" as in "rh" e.g. "eRhini" (Grahamstown) or "eRhawutini" (Joburg) and it will be pronounced as the Afrikaans "g". Madiba's middlename is pronounced with the "R" sounding like the Afrikaans "g". However Madiba has a forebear whose name is Mtirara which the Xhosas pronounce as "Mti-kla-kla". Variations of the pronunciation of "R" in isiXhosa suggest that the language didn't the alphabet "R" but late nineteenth century Xhosa writers chose this alphabet for the sound which is similar to the Afrikaans "g". In my native Zulu we don't have an "R", that is why illiterate/uneducated Zulus of old or from the sticks used to be laughed at for not being able to say the word "Lorry" as it always came out as "Lolly", however what with a lot of English words having crept into the Zulu language it is now rare to find a Zulu who struggles with an "R" unless of course you are dealing with someone who comes from a deep rural background where there was very limited or no exposure to western culture. You find these communities in places like Msinga in upper KwaZulu. |
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hey i can say qwa qwa,qumbu xhosa, cele, xulu,nxumalo etc, but for the life of me i cannot say kwa ximba ( that causes howls of derisive laughter), i have an eastern european surname which the immigration officials butchered in the 1930's so thou hast my sympathy
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As long as you don't say "KwaZimba" LJ, you'll make me a happy man. Btw, my main bugbear is with the click, I won’t get started with the names: "Nhlanhla" which our compatriots pronounce as "Nsh-la-nsh-la", but hey that's a thread for another day. |
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Wanna test drive these? C a) Place the tip of the tongue against the upper front teeth and gum. b) Depress the centre of the tongue. c) Release the tip of the tongue drawing it slightly backward. This is the click heard in English “tut tut”. Eg. cula (sing) iculo (song, hymn). Q a) Press the upper part of the tongue-tip against the part between the teeth ridge and the hard palate. b) Raise the back of the tongue so that it touches the soft palate. c) Depress the centre of the tongue. d) Release sharply downwards the tip of the tongue, eg qala (start, begin), qeda (finish) X a) Place the upper part of the tongue-tip against the part between the teeth ridge and the hard palate. b) Raise the back of the tongue towards the soft palate. c) Withdraw one side of the tongue from the upper teeth e.g. xoxa (chat, converse), ixoxa (frog) The sound generally used in urging a horse….for those familiar with equestrian pursuits. Then you have the same sounds aspirated, nasalised, ‘voiced’ and some voiced forms nasalised. Easier when one is young and ready to learn...and be understood. The older one gets, the more one's tongue battles to 'imprint' certain sounds. No wonder the old zulus say Lolly. Some of the not so old still do. And for those who have trouble with the hl sound Umhlanga etc Find a Welshman. He’ll teach you….for sure. Welshwoman…. too, if you can find one. |
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Great stuff TPB Btw, it's "ixoxo" not "ixoxa". Btw2, are "zulus of old" and "old zulus" (in the present tense) the same thing? I doubt it. |
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Now this is informative, thank you! How do you do the tcha (harsh sound) of the isiZulu "No!" |
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I have no real problem with the clicks (except maybe that blerry X) and do try. I usually as a person to repeat his name for me 3 times so I can catch on. I do, however, have a problem when they rape my Surname (which is French). When they do this I usually revert to calling them Friday while pronouncing the R like a REAL Namaqualander! |
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"No!" in isiZulu is "Cha!" You follow the same steps as in TPB's note on pronouncing a "C" the difference is that when you pull the tongue down you also pull it back a bit. |
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...and if they can achieve all those acrobatics while just talking, imagine what else that tongue is capable of! [sorry...just HAD to sneak that in] |
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Start with the tongue at the front of the upper palate (just behind the teeth) for the 't' and then follow through with an 'almost' aspirated follow through with the 'ch' finishing with an 'ah' sound as your tongue parts company with the upper palate. At least that's how I remember it.As I have said, it's easier on the "tonque" when one is a kid. |
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Almost all the isizulu I've learnt over the years was learnt 'phonetically'. I don't always recognise the written language. You're right about the "old zulus" of course. |
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"However Madiba has a forebear whose name is Mtirara" Actually Rog... the correct spelling is Mtikrakra, hence there is a difference in pronounciation. The "K" is the one that influences the pronounciation. Phonetically, you will put the "h" between the T and the I, but people tend to leave out the H. This can be confusing though to people who do not speak the language because the pronunciation without the H can be slightly different. |
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Arrrrrgh RO, yes there's no difficulty in pronouncing Sexwale - what I was pointing out that millions of innocent folk would think there is a click because of the x, see? A lot of nice peeps have given clues on how to do the clicks - there's a load of much more difficult ones in Xhosa than in Zulu (because of the inter-liaisons between the Xhoi/san and the Xhosas, there was less of that between them and the Zulus) - but a very easy way is: x is how one 'tells' a horse to gee up, q is how you'd imitate a champagne cork popping and c is very like how you'd tell a young kid that he or she was being naughty, or telling them not to do something. (There are also your actual technical descriptions that may help some people if they've studied linguistics or music) |
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Quote: TPB & Cal: There may be a bit of an error here. The Zulu word for "No" is "Cha" and it doesn't have a "t". Coming to think of it there isn't a word in the Zulu language which has "tch". |
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hl is laterlized unvoiced liquid? |
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Quote: I don't know Billie, all the instances I've seen of the capturing of name "Mtirara", it has always been written like that "Mtirara" See below: Quote: and: Quote: and
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An interview with Amakhosi akwa Mtirara |
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Quick reply method: Hl like Hlabisa shouldn't be just like the Ll of real Welsh people btw. (Can't remember who raised this, sorry) |
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A lateral unvoiced liquid. |
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"Hl" is the sound of a person vocalising the sound of static on TV or Radio. |
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I guess I'm just tchopped hliver. |
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Merely trying to 'spell' out how "Cha" sounds. |
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Quote: The Welsh "Llanelly" but without as much liquid 'spluttering'. One doesn't need as much protection from the weather in Kwa-Zulu Natal as one does in Wales...when asking for directions. |
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Rog, I know you took the spelling somewhere and you need to realise one thing.... the people who write these things are NOT Xhosa speaking.... hence the incorrect spelling. For some reason we seem to accept this. Like Umthatha is now umtata... the "h" point I was making in my previous post applies. An effort needs to be made to spell better... at least a person has the time to double check the spelling before writing.... that is why I DONT and WONT compromise on people who misspell my name. IF you go to the Eastern Cape and look at the signage... more than 60% of small towns, villages and some rivers with Xhosa names are misspelled ... the provincial government is trying to address this at the moment. Rog... I should know.... its my first language...
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Quote: ... and the defence rests your honour. Well you got me there, Billie. |
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Erm... if it pleases the Court, the prosecution wishes to sneak in - through the backdoor - one last witness who will irrefutably counter the defence's assertion that the name "Mtirara" is a creation by people who: Quote: Our witness is a prominent member of the Xhosa nation. He is of impeccable standing in the community. His credentials are beyond question. We apologise for the length of time it may take to go through his evidence, but we need his complete statement to support our case and also because his statement was the precursor to what has since become one of the world's best-selling books of all time. Our witness states: I was born in Umtata, Transkei, on 18 July 1918. My father, Chief Henry, was a polygamist with four wives. Neither he nor my mother ever went to school. My father died in 1930, after which David Dalindyebo, then acting Paramount Chief of the tribe, became my guardian. I am related to both Sabata Dalindyebo, the present Paramount Chief of Tembuland, and to Kaizer Matanzima, Chief Minister for the Transkei. Both are, according to Tembu custom, my nephews. I hold the degree of Bachelor of Arts from the University of South Africa, and am a qualified solicitor. I married Winnie, daughter of Columbus Madikizela, the present Minister of Agriculture in the Transkei, in 1958, whilst an accused in the Treason Trial. I have five children, three by a former marriage and two with Winnie. My political interest was first aroused when I listened to elders of our tribe in my village as a youth. They spoke of the good old days before the arrival of the White man. Our people lived peacefully under the democratic rule of their kings and counsellors and moved freely all over their country. Then the country was ours. We occupied the land, the forests and the rivers. We set up and operated our own government; we controlled our own armies, and organised our own trade and commerce. The elders would tell us about the liberation and how it was fought by our ancestors in defence of our country, as well as the acts of valour performed by generals and soldiers during those epic days. I hoped, and vowed then, that amongst the pleasures that life might offer me, would be the opportunity to serve my people and make my own humble contribution to their struggle for freedom. At 16, as is our custom, I went to a circumcision school on the banks of the Bashee River, the place where many of my ancestors were circumcised. By the standards of my tribe, I was now a man ready to take part in the 'parliament' of the tribe Imbizo. At 23, my guardian felt it was time for me to get married. He loved me very much and looked after me as diligently as my father had, but he was no democrat and did not think it worthwhile to consult me about a wife. He selected a girl, fat and dignified, paid lobola108 and arrangements were afoot for the wedding. I escaped to Johannesburg. I applied for a job at Crown Mines. I had left home with my nephew, who was four years older than I, Chief Justice Mtirara, now a member of the Transkeian Territorial Authority. It was arranged that he would start off as a learner mabalana (clerk) and I as a policeman. After a short time, it was said, when a vacancy occurred, I would become a clerk. I left the mines and worked for a year as an estate agent at £2 per month plus commission. It was the most difficult time in my life. In 1942 I was articled to a Johannesburg firm of attorneys - Witkin, Sidelsky and Eidelman. To Mr Sidelsky, I will always be indebted. Two of the experiences I had in the firm are worth recording. On my first day at the office the White senior typist said, 'Look, Nelson, we have no colour bar here. When the tea-boy brings the tea, come and get yours from the tray. We have brought two new cups for you and Gaur Radike -another African employee. You must use them. Tell Gaur about your cups. Be careful of him, Nelson, he is a bad influence.' I duly told Gaur, whose response was, 'I will show you. Do exactly as I do.' When the tea arrived Gaur boycotted the new cups and picked one of the old ones. I had no desire to quarrel with him or the senior typist, so for months I did not drink tea. Some months later a new typist, also White, was in the habit of asking me for work when she had nothing to do. One day I was dictating to her when a White client came in. She was obviously embarrassed and, to demonstrate that I was not her employer, she took 6d. from her purse and said, 'Nelson, please go and get me some hair shampoo from the chemist.' In 1944 I joined the African National Congress. The movement grew and in 1952 I was elected President of the Transvaal branch. The same year I became Deputy National President. I was ordered to resign in 1953 by the Nationalist Government. In 1953 I was sentenced to a suspended sentence of nine months' imprisonment for my part in organising the campaign for the Defiance of Unjust Laws. Then in 1956 I was arrested on charges of high treason. The case lasted for five years and I was discharged in March 1961. Early in April 1961 I went underground to organise the May strike, and have never been home since. In January 1962, I toured Africa, visiting Tanganyika, Ethiopia, Sudan, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Mali, Senegal, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ghana and Nigeria. I also visited England. In all these countries I met the Heads of State or other senior government officials. In England I was received by Hugh Gaitskell, then leader of the Labour Party, and by Jo Grimond, leader of the Liberal Party. (Notes written by Mandela about himself while on trial for sabotage at the request of James Kantor, one of the accused against whom the charges were later withdrawn.) |
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Oh, oh! I exist! |
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Since when did you join the 'social' lepers club? |
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For some reason ROG is ignoring me; I don't know if it's deliberate or accidental; I always notify people I put on ignore. |
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No I'm not ignoring you. I haven't used the ignore feature on you. |
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With due respect to the honorable statesman Rog that spelling is incorrect. I doubt he did the typing himself. I cant picture him infront of a PC or a typewriter tik tikking. Here is an extract from the Abathembu lineage: 1830 - 1845 Fadana a Ndaba (acting) 1845 - 1849 Mthikrakra a Ngubengcuka (b. 1819 - d. 1849) 1849 - 1863 Joyi a Ngubengcuka (acting) 1863 - 31 Dec 1884 Qeya Ngangelizwe a Mthikrakra (b. 1840 - d. 1884) 1885 - 22 Apr 1920 Alava Dalindyebo a Ngangelizwe (b. 1865 - d. 1920) 1 Oct 1920 - 1 Oct 1924 Silimela a Ngangelizwe (acting) Below is what the ICON has written ... but I doubt he typed this: Ngubengcuka, one of the greatest monarchs, who united the Thembu tribe, died in 1832. As was the custom, he had wives from the principal royal houses: the Great House, from which the heir is selected, the Right Hand House, and the Ixhiba, a minor house that is referred to be some as the Left Hand House. It was the task of the sons of the Ixhiba or Left Hand House to settle royal disputes. Mthikrakra , the eldest son of the Great House, succeeded Ngubengcuka and among his sons were Ngangelizwe and Mantanzima. Sabata, who ruled the Thembu from 1954, was the grandson of Ngangelizwe a senior to Kalzer (sic) Daliwonga, better known as K.D. Matanzima, the former chief minister of the Transkei - my nephew, by law and custom - who was a descendant of Matanzima. The eldest son of the Ixhiba house was Simakade, whose younger brother was Mandela, my grandfather. Here is the link: http://www.history.und.ac.za/ebe1mhm/madiba.htm Rog, I fully understand your argument and Im not here to say you are wrong. All these errors are in the public domain and it's only natural that people would think they are correct. It has been OK to misspell our languages without anyone challenging this...but I guess it is time we rectify this. We have 11 official languages now and this should be reflected in the way we show respek to the names of people and places, not only when we pronounce them (as you have argued) but also when we write them. |
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Hhayi-ke mhlekazi omhle usundoyisile, ewe ndiyavuma. AmaZulu aye athi: "Maluju! Khumu!Yobe!" xa indoda ibethiwe. Phofu-ke sendithatha kwanentonga ezi zami, ndiyemuka.
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Wena weNdlovu..... Bayethe!! |
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First thank you for alerting me in the post box about your post here. I'm sorry for not responding directly to it earlier, but it did seem that the post was in reply to what Aisling had posted. That may have been the reason why I missed the post. Now in the shoutbox you stated that I said it's offensive to say names with clicks incorrectly. There is no evidence in this thread that I made such a statement. As for the question on whether or not foreigners are exempted from learning the clicks, well, let me remind you that it is not my business to dispense exemptions, least of all on matters related to language (speaking of course as a person who is still learning the English language among others). However I do encourage people to learn the clicks should they find themselves in an environment where consonants "C", "Q" & "X" are pronounced in a fashion unfamiliar to what they are to, much as I'd encourage anyone to learn the correct way of dealing with the "x" in "beaux"or "sérieux" if they find themselves in Quebec for example. Saying the name with a click incorrectly isn't disrespectful, but refusing to even attempt to learn is. If a Xhosa from "Queenstown" can learn to say the name of this town like an English-speaking person and say "Qaqadu" with the proper click on the "Q", then everybody else can learn to do the same or even make an attempt at learning. You don't expect a Xhosa in Quebec to suddenly go: "Fudge it, in the Eastern Cape we pronounce this word with a click, I don't give a damn that the people here pronounce it to sound like "Keybeck"/”Keebeck”. Imagine meeting a Latino guy named “Xavier” and pronouncing the “X” like the Xhosa click? Fine you may get it wrong the first time you see/hear the guy’s name but surely someone, if not the person himself, will tell you the correct way of pronouncing the name – btw, in SA it is pronounced “Zavier” - but then you say “Fudge it, I’ll pronounce it like we pronounce Xhosa clicks. I don’t have time to learn all of that ‘Gha-vier’ or ‘Ha-vier’ nonsense” This is what I object to AA.The fact so many English-speaking and Afrikaans-speaking people have learned and mastered the click is a sure indication that it can be done. The question is: "Do you want to?" |
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The answer is "No, not really." |